The BlackSwordsman Forums - View topic - Miura's interpretation of the problem of free will

In general, you guys are amazing: in depth character analysis, great discussions and arguments, and the ability to recognize one of the greatest fictional works ever produced. I am a grown ass man, with a wife and kids, and still I am enthralled with the world of Berserk. I try to explain to my peers, but as soon as I mention manga they look at me skeptically. I guess certain prejudices about what is high brow and what is low brow art and literary forms are slow to die ...

At any rate, the point of my post is the topic of free will. I noticed in many of the threads that people talk about, for example, that Griffith had to do this, or the fatalistic Idea of Evil and the Eclipse, and so on. I think Miura has presented us with the classic antimony of free will and determinism: the Idea of Evil manipulates events to bring about a certain actuality, on one level, and on another level we read repeatedly from Griffith and Guts that a man should be free to do whatever he wants to do - freedom of will and action makes life worth living. Do we determine our own fate? or are we pawns beneath the sky?

Even in the game-breaker, the key between the apparently, but not necessarily, two separate philosophies - the behelit - does not resolve the tension between free will and determinism, but rather it highlights the problem. The eggs are fated to be used by their owner, born out of the intense desire of men to overcome their limitations, because nothing is worse than recognizing your limits, but still, at the crucial moment, the pre-determined user still has a choice, as was evinced by the Slug dude. It seems on some levels that Griffith was bound to achieve his kingdom, yet on other levels we are reminded that, "I will do what I want."

It seems that Miura believes simultaneously in the freedom of the will and action, and that things are already pre-ordained and we are just pieces to be manipulated by, and here comes the incoherence of his theory, our own free will. Yes, the Idea of Evil was created by us, so our free will has, by some mystical process, become a god that determines the events of humanity.

This incoherence can only be resolved by assuming that Miura actually believes fully and exclusively in freedom of will and action, as seen when Guts repeatedly tells the Skull Knight and Zodd that they do not know him or his future, but wants to mock the position of the religious hoi polloi. Yes, Miura does not believe in determinism or fatalism, but, by definition, religious people, especially those of the monotheistic variety, must. And this belief drives them to do idiotic and baneful things; in essence, it robs them of their humanity.

I do not necessarily agree with this, nor do I know that this is how Miura actually thinks, but it certainly seems that way based on what he writes in Berserk. What do you guys think?

(moved to Berserk board)

I believe fate is the result of making too many choices. What makes sense to me in terms of Berserk is that individuals make choices that pool as the collective will whose net force drives causality: since so many choices were initially made, it locks the system into a narrow path of cause and effect that perpetuates itself.


Berserk is a seinen manga, and so is aimed at grownass men. ^_^

I think Berserk is aimed for people in my age group and not grown ass man. Like I would say 17-20. Maybe.

Another endless speculation-manipulation thread...


I'd say it's aimed at 19yo good looking narcissistic white males with a great sense of humor and balls of iron.

Seriously though, does it have to be aimed at someone certain?

Firstly, a seinen manga is generally set at above eighteen because you can't show that kinda shit to kids.

Back to the thread topic, to discuss something we've probably done a thousand times.

The Slug Count made his choice not to sacrifice his daughter. This implies that even though causality rules over humans and apostles, at an incident, there is still a chance that something else can happen.

The Skull Knight later says the same thing, that there is always a chance.

However, one could argue that this chance cannot do much to affect causality in its entirety. After all, despite that the God Hand were surprised at the Skull Knight at the Eclipse, they did not feel threatened.

A more recent example is the Skull Knight's failed attempt at attacking Femto. Femto remarked that causality was bound in the sword strike, and redirected the strike onto Ganishka.

The merging of the real and astral realm may have been bound to happen whether the Skull Knight arrived or not. Perhaps Femto would've found another way, or something else was scheduled to happen. It is possible that he expected the Skull Knight and his Sword of Resonance, but that seems unlikely, considering that the God Hand were surprised by the Skull Knight previously.

Personally, I'm going with that there is some choice, and there is a chance, but that chance is always a small one, made smaller depending on how important to causality that incident is.

Back to how causality came about. Presuming the Idea of Evil is canon, it seems likely that causality was the created of the human mind, as was their god.

Primitive man knew not how to explain the world, and so explained it with the idea of god (or gods, considering that early religions generally had lots of gods). Hence, the IoE was created. Somewhere after this, their god's powers grew till people said that God had planned out their lives. Something bad happens- God's plan. Hence, causality. People feel that those chosen by God can join him. Hence, those chosen by fate to become apostles, and amongst those, the God Hand.

However, the theory that the will of man created the IoE and causality can mean that provided the will of mankind grows strong enough, causality and the IoE can be overcome.

It's true that there a chance of unexpected things happening at the time junction point but, to be fair, I think the Slug Count incident was very vague. He did not choose to sacrifice his daughter, but it's not clear that he flat out refused to sacrifice her either. He may have died while trying to decide. I don't say this to belittle his obvious love for his daughter, just that it's a tough choice for anyone to make.

I thought that his body was designed so it wouldn't die.

Hence why it took Guts having to tear him apart to just render him helpless. And considering he was screaming while the souls dragged him away, that implies he was still alive and did reject the God Hand.

So blah blah blah blah, blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah blah.

Blah.

Yes, but blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Blah Berserk blah blah? Blah blah blah blah blah blah Miura blah blah.

*blah blah*

Ah yes, but I think you forget the blah blah blah, yackity-smackity. Blah blah blah, Guts blah, blah blah blah blah blah, Griffith's a douche blah.
Not to mention that blah blah blah.

I think that blah blah blah, causality blah.

Blah blah blah?
Blah.

No. Because blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ioe blah blah. Blah blah Guts blah blah blah blah.

So in conclusion, imo blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. I don't have anything against you, but blah blah blah blah blah. Blah blah. It's just not the way I see it.