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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:11 pm 

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Wavering Wanderer wrote:

He defies the limits so therefore does he surpass destiny? He is supposed to have been dead for over two years already but still there has been no human, monster, or godhand member that has been able to kill him.



I like this, But again, let's take it a step further. What if we were to say that this "surpassing destiny" IS in essence Guts/Gatsu/Gatts' destiny. Which then asks: Maybe there is a god beyond the godhand, beyond the destinal creature/entity we see once in the manga and cannot properly name it anything else than "God".

Behelit wrote:
I think that nothing can change the fact that Guts has been marked by the brand... So in a way he's most likely already "doomed"...


It's alright, the swedish rock! If he is doomed then why hasn't he been doomed. I think Guts is cursed more than anything. There is something Shakespearian here, in both that Casca has lost her memory and it is presented as a problem that Guts wants to fix, that we the viewers want to see resolved, but that maybe Casca is lucky, that maybe she is blessed and maybe she doesn't want her memory back. Furthermore, we could say Guts is cursed, that it isn't a blessing that he was saved from the sacrifice, that amongst all the insanity he is still sane. We want Guts to live, we see it as a gift his life has been withheld, but maybe Casca is the blessed and he is the cursed. I don't think Guts is doomed, for he already escaped doom's jaws. I think more than anything, he is bewitched, burden, tortured, cursed. Guts cannot even shut one eye-lid without the possibility of a demons appearing. Why did Skull Knight rescue him? . . .

polo wrote:
one thing that throws me off is that in berserk they have catholicism in it. even the pope gives griffith his blessing. if this religion is in berserk. were is our god, why is he not helping? or is he helpin on gutts side? judas stated before that they wish that there was a true benevolent god in Berserk and that he hasn't made his appearance. maybe he is showin himself in gutts. or togo in another direction maybe griffith is some kind of Antichrist? look at who his father is (the king of all demons)


Berserk has catholicism in it for the sake of reality (fanti-realism?). Religion is important throughout history and since Berserk is set in this Medieval / Pre-Renaissance time period, religion and the Catholic church are clearly something it can't leave out. So just because it exists in Berserk, doesn't mean it is to be taken as an "Absolute Truth".

I really like what you said about god showing himself in guts. This, again, ties into this cursed-burden Guts has. Maybe this god beyond the godhand is working through guts, working through the skull knight, playing things out not like a chess game, but a backgammon strategy. Thus death should of and could of been Guts blessing, his ticket out. His eternal slumber if you will. But no, he didn't see that at the time. At the time he saw his best-friend, his partner, his rival, his beloved brother Griffith give him up as a sacrifice, and death was something he would not succumb to, yet maybe he should have.

If this god beyond god is working through Guts, then we could almost describe it as a "Deus Ex Machina" except through conventional, physical, and spiritual means. Through flesh, and through the mystical world (note Shrieke and other magicians pose a threat).

Final note for Verses:
See Lain! Texhnolyze was their next project and i thought it was pretty good too, but Lain exceeds it. (& only 13 episodes long).

-sorry for long post
Laugh & the world laughs with you, Weep & you weep alone.


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:28 am 

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Quote:
ykontroll asked:
Why did Skull Knight rescue him? . . .


what if gutts wasn't even supposed to be there in the eclipse? maybe the first eclipse wasn't even supposed to happen. if the so called "god" planned out everything to put griffith on the throne, did it factor in guts? it was his destiny to die as a sacrifice, but isn't gutts already living on borrowed time.

guts was found under his hung mother, he should have died there. now take gutts out of the picture, were would the band of the hawk been then. griffith says himself," we are here because of you gutts" (i cant remember which chapter its in though) and what about all the fights that the band of the hawk won because of gutts. especially that battle that ended the 100 year war were zodd through gutts his sword after gutts sword broke fighting the leader of the purple rhinos.

what made griffith use the behelit in the first place? he was tortured in prison. why was he tortured, he had sex with the princess. why did he have sex with the princess, he was so depressed that gutts left the band that griffith felt worthless and hollow that he needed a pick-me-up. and whats better then a virgin princess who wants you and make you feel worthy and on the right path. if it wasn't for gutts griffith would had broke alot earlier from the devastation from losing all his friends from battles to get to the top of midlands armies. would have caska pipen and all the others survived all those battles if gutts wasn't there to kill off everyone in front of him. they would have been sacrified even before the first eclipse.

everyone says that gutts is defying the odds that he shouldn't be alive he is never going to survive hes a marked man. maybe he isn't defying the odds, the odds are on his side just by him being alive. maybe he is writing the destiny of the world just by being alive. like he is god and what ever he does affects everything. whether he dies or not it doesn't matter because he created the world hes in right now from his own will. could gutts be the true godshand?

or if this so called "god" moved things in a way so that griffith could come this world, maybe in doing so created gutts as well. like newtons law "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" so in turn gutts is as strong as griffith/femto he just hasnt realized it yet

also ykontroll you said in the begining of this post
Quote:
If you notice, these are very dark comparisons, but they make sense. They make sense in a twisted and grudgey way. I see Berserk as an inverted Bible, as a negative print so to speak. The blacks are white and the whites are black, and ultimately, it makes for a damn good story, seeing that it alludes to one of the most controversial and most renown and important books in history.

if you go by that, the dark omen of finding gutts under his dead hung mother, really was a good omen almost like the star leading the three wise men to jesus but instead of being life there is death. which you can also say that by gutts killing everything he sees is making him more "holy" or to quote wavering wonderer in another post more of a "white knight" . the opposite of jesuses "make love not war" philosophy

also jesus was born in a stable with loving family and warmth all around him and he is destined to be the savior of humanity. could that mean gutts born in death and cold with no family, in oppsite world, is destined from the beginning to be the savior of humanity and not just some guy out for revenge ( i know that gutts is the savior, just proving the fact)

or maybe im just a noob and this only make sense to me
The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss.
Thomas Carlyle


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:19 pm 

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damn good post, polo.

i'm liking this inverted jesus/savior analogy we have going on. as if Griffith is this Anti-Christ, this fake "Savior" who sold his soul, his whole Being, to the devil, to fate, when he accepted the Crimson Behelit. Yet we get from the Anime that it was already predestined to happen, he was already chosen to choose before he even chose.

Thus we can excerpt from this that Griffith is this false Savior, false "god". He is more a demon than he is a god. An anti-god, anti-savior, anti-christ. Griffith plays the card of "white" of "the hawk" and he has come back to Midland, reborn in flesh (like the prophecy of the returning of christ) except it is good for evil, whereas Guts is evil for good. Guts plays the card of "black" of "the swordsman" and he has come back to Midland from a sacrifice, and ultimately he is the real Savior, the hero/anti-hero, the god amongst man, but not many believe, not many can see, for he doesn't walk the path one would expect "the savior" to be. Much like the Bible, when Jesus came, the "king of the jews", he but rode a donkey, he but walked the path of a poorman, an equal to peasants, an anti-noble.

I'm really liking this. Very nice post polo. I really like what you said about Guts' birthplace, and build-off off of that. Black is white and white is black. The white hawk vs the blackswordsman. Two gods, two Christs, two individuals who have exceeded flesh and bone. Griffith being Femeto and being reborn in the physical realm, and Guts having superhuman strength and part of his Being trapped inside the Interstice world.

The world, the people of what was once Midland, all look up to Griffith, all see him as "their savior", but it is false. He is the anti-savior, the anti-christ, who is playing them all, even his love Charlotte, to reach his ambitions...much like when he sacrificed the first band of the hawk, his first loved comrades, his first betrayal. Whereas Guts could be the true savior, the real christ of Berserk, but only few acknowledge that or see the potential in that. Most will stand in his way, most will laugh, most will not see the truth and will fall under the palm of the Anti-Christ, under the grasp of Griffith.

Black is white and white is black. The white hawk vs the blackswordsman.
Laugh & the world laughs with you, Weep & you weep alone.


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:06 pm 

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This brings an entire new ordeal to light.

Though opposite they have very similar lives.

Similiarities/Differences:
Both have been tortured and while being tortured said something to the person lashing them that made it worse.
-Griffith talking about the princess
-Guts saying shit bout god and telling the mayor that he doesn't give a shit

Both have had sex with a man. Both in cases of money.
-griffith did it for money (done by choice)
-gambino was paid (no choice, he was raped)

Lost almost everything they cared about
-griffith lost his dream (for a time)
-guts lost all his friends and his love (cuz of griffith)

Both have been persecuted one way or another
-nobles to griffith
-everyone to guts after the eclipse

Have they're own disciples:
-farneze, scipio, pak, shrieke (farneze and scipio came together so its like in the bible where jesus gets the two when they're fishing except these two were fishing for nonbeliever and blasphamists)
-band of the hawk old and new

physical trait:
white hair, black hair, white armor, black armor
long, short (sword and hair)
opposite demons (land creature (wolf) sky creature (hawk))
(their inner demons are like the werewolf and the vampire)(anyone see hellsing?)

Put these into consideration and it truly the way you guys speak.
"He shall rip through the shroud of darkness using only his sword."


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:46 pm 

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if gutts is the savior or "jesus figure" does that mean there is a possibility that in the end of fighting all those years, him living when he should not live, him never giving up, he will have to do just that and give up like neo in the martix or how jesus did for our sins and sacrific himself to really save everyone?

what if the so-called "god" gave gutts the choice in the end to never exist or die as a baby, so that the band wouldn't be sacrificed as part of the first eclipse. and griffith would have became the ruler of midland without using the crimson behelit or by fallin off the bandwagon and having woppy with the princess(before he should have)

or is that just stretchin it too much?
The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss.
Thomas Carlyle


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:37 pm 

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polo wrote:
he will have to do just that and give up like neo in the martix or how jesus did for our sins and sacrific himself to really save everyone?



i thought the exact same thought. i kinda hope and semi-think that's what will happen. everything is almost happening in deja vu for berserk. Guts wanted to be Griffith's friend which meant he had to be his equal in all regards. Thus Guts left Griffith in sake of friendship and in order to find his own path. But that shattered Griffith's dream for a a wrinkle in time, and left him vulnerable. An actually weakness only an equal to him could do.

When Griffith regain his new body, one of the first things he did was go before Guts. If you remember, he wanted to see if he was still emotional, still weak, still vulnerable to Guts, his former "equal". And if you recall, he said he was only testing that out and discovered his new body truly is flawless for he wasn't shaken out all by Guts, which drove Guts all the more mad. Again, we get pulled to the beginning when Guts is far from Griffith, and equality is no where in sight between the two. I think this is happening again, except with the new Griffith and the new Guts. The demon hawk and the demon wolf.

I think in the end, Guts must once again reach Griffith's equality which means becoming "still", no longer holding these emotions of the pasts, this vulnerability. It no longer affects Griffith, thus Griffith is again the superior, and if Guts wishes to "be his friend" (which by that i mean his equal) he must do the same, and then and only then will he able to defeat Griffith. All of this is in connection to Gut's demon, and the armor. He must overcome that, overcome himself, which we see the manga through and through hinting at.

I really think it is going down like Neo, like Jesus, in the sense that Guts must in the end submit, sacrifice himself (instead of being sacrificed), and safe mankind with his equality to "god"/anti-god Griffith, which in deju vu will drive Griffith's dream into shattered pieces, seeing that once again this man, this flesh and bone [Guts] has transcended to be his equal. & once that happens, Griffith will be defeated a second and final time.

We really need to get Miura on this forum!
Laugh & the world laughs with you, Weep & you weep alone.


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:11 am 

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If you look at the bible it says the anti-christ will come into the world and will bring peace he will act as someone who does great good but in acuallity want to do great bad. And if the anti-christ is some one whom people look up to he will try to persecute the actual "new" christ. so that the only person that is able to stop him will be look at like a criminal when he is really trying to save evryone.

If you look at it griffith is trying to bring "peace" to the world and every one looks up to him and pretty much worships him(look at the apostels)
all the while gutts is being persecuted by well pretty muxh everyone. I certainly see a correlation to your theory and the comming of the next anti-christ.


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:27 am 

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Going back to the basics...

ykontroll wrote:
...Thus we can excerpt from this that Griffith is this false Savior, false "god". He is more a demon than he is a god. An anti-god, anti-savior, anti-christ. Griffith plays the card of "white" of "the hawk" and he has come back to Midland, reborn in flesh (like the prophecy of the returning of christ) except it is good for evil, whereas Guts is evil for good. Guts plays the card of "black" of "the swordsman" and he has come back to Midland from a sacrifice, and ultimately he is the real Savior, the hero/anti-hero, the god amongst man, but not many believe, not many can see, for he doesn't walk the path one would expect "the savior" to be. Much like the Bible, when Jesus came, the "king of the jews", he but rode a donkey, he but walked the path of a poorman, an equal to peasants, an anti-noble.


Brilliant, beautifully said ykontroll. That's definitely one of my beliefs, Griffith is the type of person or individual who sets a personal goal and doesn't let anything stop him from achieving that certain goal. Even if it meant sacrificing his comrades and using others to advance his moves towards his dream. With Guts, Griffith knew he could achieve what he wanted, to have his own Kingdom.. When that trump card wasn't under his control.. He lost all hope, went crazy, lost himself. Giving it all up, giving into the behelit, he didn't want to rely on anyone anymore, more-so Guts. The whole Casca ordeal, I felt his jealousy, his anger towards Guts. He wanted him to feel as helpless as he did when Guts left him.

Now he walks the Earth in some form of matter, followed by his apostles and those who lost all hope, they hope to be saved.

polo wrote:
...or if this so called "god" moved things in a way so that griffith could come this world, maybe in doing so created gutts as well. like newtons law "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" so in turn gutts is as strong as griffith/femto he just hasnt realized it yet


Definitely, I'm sure for a lot of us, that was our first impression on what was happening. He's the answer to the equation, there isn't another soul who has the passion, the passion of hate that Guts carries on his back.


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:18 pm 

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We're a bunch of nerds :geek: o well
"He shall rip through the shroud of darkness using only his sword."


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 Post subject: Re: god the father, god the son, goddamn Berserk
PostPosted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 7:33 pm 

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ykontroll wrote:

We really need to get Miura on this forum!


that would be great if we could get him to put his two cents in.
The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss.
Thomas Carlyle


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